Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Romani people
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[edit] POV
I'm a little alarmed that one of the first acts of the founder (and currently only member) of this WikiProject, User:Desiphral, has been to nominate for deletion a rather innocuous article on a nationally known criminal, who happens to be gypsy, on the grounds that it is racist. This smacks to me of trying to suppress information for nationalistic reasons. Future members of this WikiProject should remember that Wikipedia is not censored and that a point of view can be pushed not just by adding material but by removing it as well. —Psychonaut 13:19, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- Don't worry, it is not one of my first acts, it is just part of my daily routine on Romani issues, which happened to fall in the same day (and predating the creation of this WikiProject). However, it seems that, as in many other cases of wiki editing, I have to confront racist POVs even in creating this WikiProject. Certain persons do not like to see the Roma as normal people, seeming to stick with the "Gypsy" stereotypes/prejudices. Should I take this as warning, to keep remember for staying in the limits of the "Gypsy" image? Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 13:29, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- No, you should take this as a reminder that Wikipedia is not politically correct and is not engaged in affirmative action. We should not remove information on well-known criminals simply because they happen to be members of an ethnic minority stereotypically classed as criminals. —Psychonaut 14:03, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- You mean that Wikipedia should express the racist POV of some parts of the world population? I wrote at that AfD that there are enough shaking White beggars, but they do not have wiki articles. And she is not a "well-known criminal", just a mass-media creation for the amusement of the racist readers. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 14:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- Her criminal conviction qualifies her as a criminal. Five years' coverage in the local and national media qualify her as well-known. There is no disputing that she is notable. If you object to the fact that she is being singled out at the expense of notorious white beggars, the solution is not to delete her article, but to write articles about these notorious white beggars. (And note that I am not disputing your claim that she is a mass-media creation for the amusement of racist readers. On the contrary, I invite you to find published criticism to this effect and add it to the article. I'm pretty sure I recall reading articles stating this point of view.) —Psychonaut 14:23, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- No, there is no necessity to make a wiki article about a beggar having no other social role than a a target for amusement and hating in the same time, be they of any ethnicity. The info itself has no encyclopedic value, Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 14:38, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- Her criminal conviction qualifies her as a criminal. Five years' coverage in the local and national media qualify her as well-known. There is no disputing that she is notable. If you object to the fact that she is being singled out at the expense of notorious white beggars, the solution is not to delete her article, but to write articles about these notorious white beggars. (And note that I am not disputing your claim that she is a mass-media creation for the amusement of racist readers. On the contrary, I invite you to find published criticism to this effect and add it to the article. I'm pretty sure I recall reading articles stating this point of view.) —Psychonaut 14:23, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- You mean that Wikipedia should express the racist POV of some parts of the world population? I wrote at that AfD that there are enough shaking White beggars, but they do not have wiki articles. And she is not a "well-known criminal", just a mass-media creation for the amusement of the racist readers. Desiphral-देसीफ्राल 14:13, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
- No, you should take this as a reminder that Wikipedia is not politically correct and is not engaged in affirmative action. We should not remove information on well-known criminals simply because they happen to be members of an ethnic minority stereotypically classed as criminals. —Psychonaut 14:03, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Template for the Romani language
I noticed there is not any template to show that a user can speak Romani language. I find this rather disturbig, as there are templates about some bizarre constructed languages (e.g. Wenedyk), however Romani Chhib does not have its own template. Is any of the more experienced members of this group able to create such a template? --Anglos 13:01, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
[edit] New pictures at WikiMedia Commons
I uploaded 6 new pictures at Wikimeda Commons into the ctegory of Roma People.see them [here] --Anglos 10:26, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
[edit] Joining this project
Hello,
I am one of the sons of Ian Hancock, and of Romani descent. I would like to join this WP group and contribute my skills as a part-time editor.
My skills are more Wikipedia oriented and less Romani-info oriented; I prefer to leave that up to my father, the academic.
I can fix spellings, grammatical errors, and typography related to the Romani language as necessary.
Weasel5i2 (talk) 01:38, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Stick together
To all my rom people, we need to stick together on wikipedia, I have tried and tried to write artciles on our Romany History, people gorgers dont understand, that our history can not be found with web content and that most travellers don't read or write. Please all help each other, need some help keeping the Darren M Jackson article. Any one rokker me through my chib page. kushti bok to all my penna and prala, and lets stop the kori sherrios from deleting our work.Diamonddannyboy (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 09:51, 11 March 2008 (UTC)
- That's a great problem to write about our history without references, but I have found out that there already exists many records of Romani history that were made by some Roma and Gadzhikane researches. Some of them are already published in the web by Russian romanologist Nickolai Bessonov. That's in Russian, but now we can tell that we use his works and put down links on his site, zigane.pp.ru RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 13:10, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Roma people proposed move
Hi. People involved in this project might be interested in contributing to the discussion at Talk:Roma people#Requested move. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:09, 23 March 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Tschiwi
I have left a question on Talk:Norwegian and Swedish Travellers that maybe someone here can answer. —Zalktis (talk) 07:40, 23 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Recent changes list
Perhaps someone else might find this useful:
It's based on the bot that tracks the {{wprom}} template. The more articles the where the template is used, the better the list reflects articles relevant to the project. Note that the bot only updates its article list every 5 days or so, so there can be a bit of a lag after the template is applied. —Zalktis (talk) 15:06, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Changes to the WP:1.0 assessment scheme
As you may have heard, we at the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial Team recently made some changes to the assessment scale, including the addition of a new level. The new description is available at WP:ASSESS.
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[edit] Sinti, Rom
Like in other wiki (it was like this in it.wiki) there is a confusion between Sinti, Rom and so on. In it.wiki we found references that let we write 3 goods article ((it:Zingari), (it:Rom (popolo)), (it:Sinti)). Zingari (=gipsy, gitans) is the name of "romanì popoulation", romanì popoluation is a name to refer to 4 etnical groups: Rom, Sinti, Kalè, Romanichales. I'll try to edit the page Sinti becouse it's a bit confused but please follow my edits becouse my english is not so good :-) --Ignlig (talk) 09:39, 20 July 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Poraimos
In my language Poraimos means Rape. Many Roma protest against this term. Why is it used in Wiki if there exists a discussion on it? Could we rename the article, using any other term? (Samudaripen, Kali Tras, Genocide of Roma people). I can't look at that article because of its name, that hurts me. RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 13:01, 21 July 2008 (UTC)
- As far as I understand, the etymology of "Porajmos" is "devouring" not "rape"; but then again, I am not a fluent Romani-speaker, and I do not know which branch of Romanes this etymology derives from. As for "Samudaripen", I believe Desiphral knows more about this term, and why it is not preferable. —Zalktis (talk) 08:02, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
- See also the following article by Ian Hancock: On the interpretation of a word: Porrajmos as Holocaust. —Zalktis (talk) 14:25, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
- I'm a Vlax romni. Porajmos DOES mean rape. It DOES. Ian Hancock doesn't see anything bad in using "double-meaning words" for mass killing of Roma, but I was sure Wiki doesn't maintain such a view. If the word hurts those who understands it (Hancock, by the way, is not vlax!) why you use it here? What's the logic? Here we don't even use the word Gypsy for Romani people because a part of Romani people doesn't like this word - only a part! Why not the same with P word? RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 06:41, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
- Attacking Hancock for not being Vlax stikes me as being unconstructive in this context. Unfortunately, "Porajmos" has entered the literature and scholarship in English (USHMM, Kenrick festschrift, etc.), as well as in other languages. Gadže like myself have been repeatedly informed for the better part of ten years now that "Porajmos/Porrajmos/Poraimos" is the preferred term. As is often the case in Romani Studies, though, just because something is repeated many times, that does not necessarily make it correct. The best course of action would be for you to propose a WP:MOVE at Talk:Porajmos. Then perhaps a consensus can be reached around an article name that everyone can live with, maybe something like Nazi genocide of the Romani people, with corresponding redirects from Porajmos, Samudaripen, Kali Tras, etc. —Zalktis (talk) 08:13, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
- Maybe. RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk)
- Attacking Hancock for not being Vlax stikes me as being unconstructive in this context. Unfortunately, "Porajmos" has entered the literature and scholarship in English (USHMM, Kenrick festschrift, etc.), as well as in other languages. Gadže like myself have been repeatedly informed for the better part of ten years now that "Porajmos/Porrajmos/Poraimos" is the preferred term. As is often the case in Romani Studies, though, just because something is repeated many times, that does not necessarily make it correct. The best course of action would be for you to propose a WP:MOVE at Talk:Porajmos. Then perhaps a consensus can be reached around an article name that everyone can live with, maybe something like Nazi genocide of the Romani people, with corresponding redirects from Porajmos, Samudaripen, Kali Tras, etc. —Zalktis (talk) 08:13, 4 September 2008 (UTC)
- See also the following article by Ian Hancock: On the interpretation of a word: Porrajmos as Holocaust. —Zalktis (talk) 14:25, 4 August 2008 (UTC)
As Professor Hancock is my father (the cunning linguist), I'll bring this to his attention, perhaps we can clarify this term and maybe even figure out a more appropriate one. I do agree that having the possible dual-meaning of "rape" is not a good thing, and certainly not appropriate to the subject. I've seen conflict over this word mentioned in many places, so perhaps something should be done. Also, please be aware that my father did NOT coin the term, but as a Romani scholar he is somewhat responsible for its (albeit ill) gain in popularity. Weasel5i2 (talk) 13:27, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
- That shall be great if something will be changed! But I can't even imagine what Rom could use such a word... In Russia, we usually use terms "Roma Holocaust", "Kali Tras" and "Roma Genocide". RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 14:40, 20 January 2009 (UTC).
- And I should ask him to forgive me about that silly joke on my name. "Khamoro" is quite a usually nickname for girls among Roma of Russia. I'm not a germaphrodite :) RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk)
Just a note: I think that my father discourages the use of "Gypsy" simply because it is a misnomer. From what he taught me, it was a name given to the Romani people by Gadže who incorrectly assumed that the Roma came from Egypt. The P-word issue, on the other hand, is not a matter of incorrect fact as much as it is a matter of opinions on which is the more appropriate term to use. I personally prefer Kali Traš myself. I did e-mail him and he replied with the same article posted above, which I also published on Google Docs (with permission): On the Interpretation of a Word: Porrajmos as Holocaust
[edit] Wikipedia 0.7 articles have been selected for Romani people
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[edit] Help needed
Hi there, I need some help. I'm improving the Hamburg article (hopefully a GA or maybe a FA sometime in the future) and there is this unsourced statement in the section Hamburg#Language:
Hamburg has a sizeable population of Sinti and Roma (“Gypsy”) people, some of them sedentary (mostly Sinti) and some of them nomadic or semi-nomadic (mostly Roma), camp grounds being set aside by the state and municipal governments. Hamburg is thus one of the few locations in the world in which both Sinti and Romany are spoken, and it is also one of the major headquarters of international Roma organisations.
Can anybody provide a citation or source for this? I've tried the ERRC [1] but found nothing. I'm sorry, but if there is no ref, I think this should be deleted. Please forgive my bad English I'm German. Please respond here, I watch this page now. Greetings. Sebastian scha. (talk) 00:36, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
- Sebastian, I'm answering to your message on my user page, but I admit I may not be the best person to ask when it comes to these things (my involvement in this project does not provide me personally with adequate info about this particular article and, alas, many others). Someone may wish to research this further, but, at the moment, the unsourced statement can be deleted as far as I can tell - while it may be true (I just don't know), it may not be either notable (in the sense that "there may be no need to single out Hamburg among German cities with Romani communities") or verifiable. In case someone can actually verify it, it could be easily reinserted in the text at that time, with a proper source added. In case you have not already, I suggest you also contact other members of the project who may provide more detailed and source-based info. I do apologize in the name of the project (that is, if I may) for the low level of activity here. In any case, best of luck on fulfilling the GA and FA goals. Dahn (talk) 15:41, 25 September 2008 (UTC)
- Thank you, but this is absolutly not urgent. I'm sitting in front of the history section and don't know how to improve it. As long this is not solved the sentence above will stay in the article (with a fact tag). Maybe anybody else is able to help. (And for the level of activity, 16 h after the question an answer is a high level to be proud of IMHO.) Greetings. Sebastian scha. (talk) 01:32, 26 September 2008 (UTC)
Hello! I'll ask my father about this one, he may have some sources to cite. Weasel5i2 (talk) 13:16, 30 September 2008 (UTC)
- Wow, there should be a source ,-) This is very nice, thank you. As said above you've got enough time. And I will be satisfied with any source (even if can't read it, I'll assume good faith). Thanks. Greetings. Sebastian scha. (talk) 00:41, 1 October 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Proposal to rename "Roma people" Wikipedia article to "Romani people"
We are searching for a consensus. Please read and react to the proposal on the Wikipedia "Roma people" talk page.Steviemitlo (talk) 15:59, 29 November 2008 (UTC)
[edit] John Roberts, Harpist - Kale (Welsh Romanies)
I'm new to wiki and have only just found this project. I'm a descendant of Abram Wood and John Roberts. I've been bold enough to add some sentences about the later John Roberts in particular the family's performance at Pale Hall before Q Victoira. But I don't know how to put the reference to the book in the right format. Could someone fix that for me, please. Colinvlr (talk) 16:27, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
- Done. Perhaps you could edit the section and add page refs to the citation template? Or I can do it for you, if you give me the relevant page numbers. —Zalktis (talk) 17:22, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for that. At the moment I'm using the version of the book pubished in Welsh. The English version folowed in 1981. My Welsh is non-existenet so the reference details are from the copy of the concert programme as an illustration between pages 32 and 33. Would it be better to wait till I get the English version back from my daughter in law, then I can quote the page number? Colinvlr (talk) 20:07, 17 December 2008 (UTC)
- Yes, the English-language version would be preferable as a source on EN Wikipedia. Let's return to this when you have the book in hand. —Zalktis (talk) 08:05, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Kalo as a group?
Perhaps we should make an umbrella article on the Romani sub-group Kalo, consisting of Kale (Welsh Romanies), Finnish Kale, Calé, as well as related groups Romnichals and Norwegian and Swedish Travellers? Along with the Sinti/Manouches and Roma sub-groups (for which there perhaps also now should be an umbrella article, now that Romani people has been renamed), the Kale are a significant branch of the European Romanis. To in support of this idea, I'd like to point out that Kenrick has an entry for "Kalo" to this effect in his Historical Dictionary of the Gypsies (Romanies), 2nd ed. (2007; ISBN 0810854686), p. 137. A possible name for the article could be Kalo (currently a redirect) or Kalo Romanies. —Zalktis (talk) 08:15, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
- I've now made a stub for the Kalo subgroup. —Zalktis (talk) 19:45, 27 December 2008 (UTC)
- Better Kale (plural) then Kalo (singular), how do you think? RomanyChaj-रोमानीछाय (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:11, 28 March 2009 (UTC).
[edit] Tentative Manual of Style
Proposal : That 'Roma' be generally deprecated as an adjective and the word 'Romani' substituted in Romani related articles. RashersTierney (talk) 13:04, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
- This page can be a very lonely place. RashersTierney (talk) 23:57, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Mahala Rai Banda
Any thoughts on this? (I know the article is terrible, but is the band itself notable?) - Biruitorul Talk 06:53, 8 February 2009 (UTC)
[edit] Coordinators' working group
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[edit] WP 1.0 bot announcement
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