Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates

The following discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Please don't move essential parts of a discussion while leaving other, equally off-topic parts alone. You are supporting one POV with those edits. Your continued refusal to change this to a more balanced position is noted, and your silly edit summaries, with a serious overtone of WP:OWNing the page, are quite ridiculous. I have disrupted less than you or Bishonen did (never mind that his rant was bolded, as if it was the most important message on the whole page). Feel free to continue with the promotion of the work of a banned and truly disruptive editor though. Fram (talk) 21:00, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

What difference does it make whether content was added by a "banned and truly disruptive editor" or not if it's good quality? --Malleus Fatuorum 21:22, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

What does make a difference is when outside, uninvolved admins interfere with and politicize the business of FAC, which is to evaluate articles, and revert delegate decisions to that aim. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:25, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

When your aim is off, it is up to others to correct it. And when I am explicitly named and shamed in an edit, I am not an uninvolved admin anymore. Fram (talk) 21:31, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

I've actually had to leave my house in the midst of half the town having no power and no cable service, to get off of dialup and deal with this. In the future, if you have a problem at FAC, please post to WT:FAC or a delegate, where the problem will be addressed. Please refrain from politicizing and edit warring at FAC, whose purpose is to evaluate articles, not admin politics. Thanks, I'd appreciate that, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:33, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

(ec) Fram, your movement of information and resulting link is a poor choice. I got to the end of that FAC page and couldn't even figure out why the link was there. You've removed information essential to understanding what's happened on the page. --Andy Walsh (talk) 21:36, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Correct. If Fram had a problem with Bish's wording, he should have taken that up with her. At any rate, the more important point to me is that uninvolved admins not politicize and edit war on a FAC, rather discuss with delegates or at WT:FAC. Even more so when I'm in the midst of a historic storm and on dialup :) Had he brought it to WT:FAC, someone with FAC experience would have dealt with it, since most FA regulars follow my talk and know I was on dialup. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:39, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, I've restored the text. FAC delegates and reviewers shouldn't have to be confounded by a passing admin action in this way. --Andy Walsh (talk) 21:43, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

(ec)I had a problem with the wording, that's why I responded to it, but you started with leaving Bishonen's post but removing my reply. Please don't twist the facts. And Andy, what info is missing? Everything that was on the FAc page (four posts in all) was completely and unchanged moved to the start of the talk page. Nothing else happened, nothing was changed. The only dispute was about how much of the off topic discussion should be kept on the main FAC page. And SandyGeorgia, I was not uninvolved, the comment was about me and suggested bringing my actions up on ANI. Fram (talk) 21:48, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

I'm indifferent to what ends up there, as long as reviewer and article needs are served, and reviewers can decide whether to continue reviewing and improving the article. Our focus here is on the article, not personal or admin politics. I am not indifferent to the politicization of FAC, and want to assure that edit warring on FACs does not talk hold, and admins discuss edits at WT:FAC or with delegates. Would have been much simpler, particularly since I was on dialup, and many others here know how FAC issues are handled. We almost never remove entire comments, only move to talk when things go off-topic. Perhaps you can come to agreement here with others about what wording to leave now, since you have caused us both to reach 3RR, so I can't do anything else now; that might have been avoided by discussing rather than reverting a delegate. The goal here is to encourage article review and improvement. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:52, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

(ec) Fram, from my perspective (which is that of a reviewer in this case, since that's what I went there to do), I read the whole page to see what has been commented on already. I got to the end and saw the link you placed. No context, no other information. I had to leave the FAC page to discover that this user was blocked for being a sock and that you performed actions that directly affect the article content and the progress of the FAC. That is information that is directly relevant to the FAC page and it should not be obscured by being moved to Talk. The longer comment you left, which you have objected to being separated, is really meta-commentary that FAC reviewers will not find relevant to the FAC. Make sense? The delegate made a decision based on what's good for the FAC page, and I agree with it. --Andy Walsh (talk) 21:52, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

From my perspective, Fram did exactly what we seek to avoid at FAC: prejudiced the outcome of a FAC by edit warring against delegate discretion. Unless the nom withdraws, perhaps a restart is in order? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:10, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Followup: reference this thread in archives. The featured article process on Wiki has a director (Raul654) and delegates who oversee the processes: this helps prevent it from degenerating into squabbles like those often seen at RFA or ANI. The goal is to allow articles a fair and thorough review, with focus on content, not nominators or reviewers or other external issues. Fram had issues with Bishonen's original post, but the way he raised those issues (edit warring with a FAC delegate, never raising his concern about Bish's wording until after he reached three reverts) prejudiced the FAC outcome. In the future, do not edit war with a delegate, and please discuss your concerns here on WT:FAC, or director/delegate pages (as those pages are watched by many editors familiar with these processes), so that action can be taken in a way that does not prejudice content review. There are numerous regulars who could have addressed this satisafactorily, even considering my connectivity limitations. FAC outcome is determined at FAC, based on knowledge of FAC and consistency in processes here-- not based on external issues. Thanks, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:06, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Your summary is largely incorrect. First of all, it takes two to edit war, not one. I raised my concerns with Bish's wording in my very first reply to her post, the one you then removed to the talk page while letting hers stand. So it is completely untrue that I was "never raising his concern about Bish's wording until after he reached three reverts". I did not post anything further to the FAC page after you indicated that the discussion should continue at the talk page, I only completed the discussion there (since your edit started it "in media res", completely unintelligible for anyone not first noticing the start of the thread at the FAC page) and restored my reply to Bishonen (the one raising myconcerns, remember?). When that somehow turned out to be unacceptable (apparently that one post disrupted the whole FAC process and made it impossible to continue the FAc discussion afterwards), I tried to also get rid of the "politicizing" post by Bishonen and to replace it by a neutral, factual summary with a pointer to the complete, original discussion. For some reason, people preferred the over the top original post to the new one (with you insisting that I singed it, before (shudder) anyone mistook it for an official post. That you are a delegate was unknown to me. You just forced your preferred, unbalanced version through, never trying to see if anything more neutral may actually be better (the current, bolded off-topic rant by Bishonen is not really more constructive for the actual FAC process). You started claiming disruption (there was none), politicizing (how?), and 3RR (while you had more reverts than me), without actually trying to resolve the dispute in any way. The way you handled this is unbecoming of a delegate. My post and the ensuing edit war had nothing to do with FAC outcome, and your continued insistence on this is bizarre. I'll leave this well alone, but start to understand why a fair number of people won't have anyting to do with the rather dictatorial burocracy this has become. Ever heard of trying to collaborate instead of trying to impose your will as a delegate? Fram (talk) 09:19, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Ok, so you weren't aware you were reverting a delegate, and I wasn't aware that your issue was with Bish's wording (perhaps if I hadn't been on dialup, I would have realized that, but Bish also mentioned she was headed out, so I wasn't focused on that). In general, edit warring a second time is not good: it's even less good when you're reverting a FAC delegate. Bringing the issue to FAC talk, as is expected in all disputes, is the norm. FAC has directors and delegates, and there are many experienced followers here who could have dealt with this more optimally. FAC is for content review: it is not the place to play out the kinds of squabbles that belong at ANI. You're entitled to whatever views of FAC you hold, but it remains one area of Wiki that works, partly because disruption is minimized so that content can remain the focus. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:59, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

And how was I supposed to know that when someone is reverting me and removing my comment at a particular FAC page, I have to discuss this at WT:FAC? There is no edit notice, there was no communication indicating this. This is one of the typical aspects of your self-centered burocracy: you impose rules, and everyone is expected to know the rules and to know that you have the right to impose them when and where you like.Fram (talk) 13:33, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Good point about no notice anywhere: maybe something should be added to the Wheel War page (sorry, don't know link, still on dialup) indicating that FAC and FAR delegates shouldn't be reverted without discussing with them, just as with admin actions. Even though it's not about "admin tools", I can't think of any other place to call attention to this, if people coming to FAC don't read the FAC page instructions. Ideas? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:42, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

Umm, no one should be rereverted without discussing it with them, as in the BRD cycle. There is no indication of your special do-not-revert status on the WP:FAC page (it mainly concerns your role in deciding the timing and outcome of a FAC discussion, which is totally different), so I would not support adding this to wheel war or any other similar page. I have now read the FAC page instructions, and I still don't see any indication of your interpretation of your role here. Fram (talk) 13:58, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

I would certainly want to see discussion of any proposed changes. The delegates have received the authority to coordinate FAC discussions and judge consensus in those discussions in the area of promotions or not of featured article candidates. The exact scope and powers have been left vague by the Director. In the absence of direction from Raul, it is for the community to decide customs and practices, and I'd like to see a discussion before we start calling reversing a delegate wheel warring. For one thing, wheel warring is a sin only admins can commit.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:04, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

I see several problems: 1) exactly what we seek to avoid at FAC happened (content review was disrupted by external issues); 2) Fram indicated he had no idea he was reverting a FAC delegate, and I don't know where we can spell that out; 3) any time anyone reverts the second time, they should take it to talk, which would have avoided this. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:19, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

I still don't see where the content review was disrupted by having four posts (or one neutral summary) instead of three posts about one off-topic topic, or whether that you are a delegate would have made any difference, just like me being an admin should not make any difference. In general, when you try to (re)move someone's post, and he or she objects, you should not revert any further but come to the talk page of that editor and explain the problem you have with it. If limited accessibility (dialup and so on) prevents you from doing this, you should not act any further but let someone else with more technical possibilities handle it. When someone is (or feels) attacked by another post, and his reply/defense is removed (but the attack isn't), you can expect them to not be amused. Forcing the issue by edit warring, threatening with page protection, and issuing 3Rr warnings and "disruption" threads, is escalating things, not resolving them. To institutionalize this by making the "power" of the delegates explicit is not the right way forward. On the contrary, delegates (and every "official" of every project that has one or more such) should be aware that regular editing practices and dispute resolution applies to them just as much as to anyone else. Fram (talk) 14:46, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

While all the drama of late was initially amusing, it grows tiresome. It may take two to edit war, but it only takes one to take some initiative, act maturely and attempt to discuss the matter - especially for those experienced enough to be admins or delegates. The perception, real or imagined, that others are misbehaving is no excuse to behave in kind. I see little need for the bureaucracy of delineating delegate authority; what happened here is a mere failure of good sense. Let's desist with the bickering and focus on more important matters, shall we? Эlcobbola _talk 14:35, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

On the contrary, delegates...should be aware that regular editing practices and dispute resolution applies to them just as much as to anyone else. - Fran, what is your point exactly? Are you saying admins have overiding authority in the FAC process? Ceoil ^sláinte 11:54, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Um, that's pretty much what I said: "it only takes one to ... discuss the matter - especially for ... delegates". Critical reading. Эlcobbola _talk 12:46, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

No, not at all. What I mean is that when there is some editing dispute (unrelated to the actual timing or closure of the FAC, which is the job of Raul and his delegates) between a delegate and any other editor (admin or not), normal procedures should be followed. This can of course include moving off-topic discussions elsewhere, but not the one-sided imposing of rules (included the idea that the delegate is not edit warring, only the other side is) and the general impression that disagreement with the edits by a delegate, as expressed by a revert, is "disruption" (never mind the fact that I wasn't even aware that SandyGeorgia was a delegate). When someone opposes the removal of a comment they made, or the removal of part of a discussion only, they shouldn't be re-reverted and labelled as disruptive, but those edits, their reason, and a possible compromise, should be discussed politely. This has nothing to do with closing a FAC and/or deciding the outcome, no part of this dispute was about the actual outcome of the FAC. Fram (talk) 12:16, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

It has everything to do with the outcome of a FAC, where we strive to minimize disruption to content review and make sure reviewers have information needed to determine if an article meets criteria. There were three cockups in this case: 1) I was on dialup and not following closely enough; 2) Fram had issues with Bish's original wording, but never brought that to FAC talk or delegate attention; but what concerns me more, 3) an admin involved himself in FAC without knowing who the delegates were. That seems to be something that needs to be fixed, lest we want FAC to start looking like the squabbling children at ANI, with content issues sidetracked. External issues do not belong here. If Fram had brought his concerns to attention, they would have been addressed without disruption to the FAC. In his defense, I wasn't focused enough because of being on dialup, but any admin coming to FAC and reverting the delegate should somehow know to either post to WT:FAC or the delegates' talk pages. If ANI begins to run FAC, it's down the tubes. I agree that this is not a typical case because there were multiple cockups-- according to Fram, one of them mine, for not recognizing his original concern, but that was never brought to FAC attention, whch would be the norm here-- but something should be done to assure that admins coming here to revert a delegate understand at least who the delegates/directors are. The goal is to minimize disruption and assure content review, free of external issues. Whether the nominator should have been blocked is not our decision or our problem. The content review was proceeding just fine-- in the best interests of the article-- until this issue came up. In Fram's defense, it appears after the fact that it was Bish's wording that concerned him, but nonetheless, the fuss made by reverting a delegate instead of bringing it to FAC attention, and equating edit warring with a delegate to edit warring on an article-- did derail the content review. What happens to FAC if ANI squabbles take hold here, with admins reverting director/delegate decisions? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 12:43, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

I did not "involve myself with FAC", please. I blocked a sock of a banned user and reverted some of his edits, as described in the banning policy, and when another user complained about my actions, I replied to that post about me. I did not involve myself with the actual FAC, and leaving one post more on the FAC page, while continuing the rest of the discussion at the talk page (as was happening, and as I did) would not have hindered the FAC any more. You state; "but any admin coming to FAC and reverting the delegate should somehow know to either post to WT:FAC or the delegates' talk pages.": whether I was an admin or not is irrelevant: I was not aware that you are a delegate, and even if I was, your delegate-specific role is limited to determining the timing and outcome of the FAC: apart from that, you are here a regular editor, just like me and everyone else. That you still fail to grasp this is of much more concern to me than what has happened in this specific instance, as it indicates that other editors would get the exact same treatment from you. It looks to me as if you are taking your role as a delegate way too serious and interpret it in much too broad a fashion, and most of your concern stems from that. Please take the time to seriously reconsider your role, both as a delegate and in this dispute, and try to act in a very different way if the same problem arises again. Fram (talk) 13:01, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

This is going in circles; we need to do something about the fact that admins come to FAC to effect adminly squabbles without even knowing who the FAC delegates are. Had I not been on dialup, I would have pinged your talk and Bish's talk: that was my mistake. But on the broader issue, next time you come to FAC to revert a delegate, will you know to discuss on talk or a delegate talk page? If so, end of that story/problem, this time anyway, but I'm still concerned that someone would be reverting a FAC without discussing with a FAC delegate or at FAC talk-- perhaps my fault for not having initiated the discussion myself because I was on dialup. We just cannot allow focus on content review at FAC to be impacted by ANI squabbles and external factors. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:13, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

For the umpteenth time, being an admin has nothing to do with this. Furthermore, I did not come to FAC to "effect adminly squabbles", I came to FAC to a) block and revert a banned user, per policy, and b) reply to an attacking post about me. Next time I come to any discussion page to do the same, I'll not ask anyone for their permission to do so, no matter what their title on that project is. You can remain concerned over whatever you like, and I'll remain concerned over your behaviour here, and we'll obviously not convince one another to change this. I just hope I'll not have to get anywhere close to FAC in the future and will abandon any thoughts of getting any of my few GAs to FA, as I'ld rather not submit to more petty burocracy than absolutely necessary. Fram (talk) 14:37, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

"I came to FAC to a) block and revert a banned user, per policy," = came to FAC with an adminly squabble that has nothing to do with content review. Not our problem. Summary: before reverting twice anywhere in the future, pls discuss. It was my oversight and mistake not to ping both Bish and you at the first sign of a problem, but don't revert twice, much less a delegate at FAC, without discussion. Thanks, SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:10, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, I did not revert any edits of the banned user at the FAC page, but at the article under review for FAC. Bishonen brought that action to the FAC page. My first edit to the FAC page was a reply to that post about me. I hope I'm still allowed to do that, your Delegate Highness? You were the first to revert twice, causing the disruption. I will not, not now, not ever, make a distinction between reverting you as a delegate or anyone else here (or elsewhere on Wikipedia) when you remove a post from me that I feel should stay at the same page as the post it is a reply to. It doesn't seem to get through to you that you don't have any special authority with regards to such edits here. This is a standard editing dispute, where you removed a post from me, I objected against it, and you escalated things with claiming "disruption", threatening to get the page protected (yeah, that would have helped the FAC process...), and generally being uncooperative, even though I tried three different solutions. No thanks. 15:49, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

Honestly, enough is enough. We've heard both sides, both of you believe you are right, and the nomination in question was archived yesterday. I don't see any point in continuing this on this page as there is no longer an active FAC nomination in question. Karanacs (talk) 15:55, 17 March 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page, such as the current discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.